This is a marginally sanitized version of a page that I wrote in January 1998 and then
forgot about. The last (only) revision was dated:
This page contains ongoing mails on the subject of training Carmina. I've tried to keep
everything as close to the original as possible, so the lines are not filled. I have,
however, fixed some mail messages which suffered from the “long/short” syndrome (see my
Email page for more details).
From: martine sherril
To: Yvonne Lehey
Subject: Re: sudden changes
> used to have extremely violent, very sudden and unpredictable
> reactions, like pullign backwards violently, rearing, trying to kick
> me, pushing me, trying to bite etc. In the end I was so "pissed off"
> that I gave up on her. Sorry to say it, but I do not like her
> anymore (pity, she is such a beauty).
I'm sure that these reactions are not unpredictable to a person who
can read horses and communicate with them. Your reaction to her is
normal, but for an NH person this horse would be looked upon as a
worthwhile challenge. I hope you will try to find a kind, natural
trainer to give her the understanding she needs.
I'm afraid that this poor horse is on the downward spiral that leads
to a cruel end if she is sold to another unsuspecting, unprepared
soul. Half a million horses a year end up at the slaughterhouse, and
many are fine Arabs like your mare. They require a sensitive hand and
there are too many of them and not enough sensitive hands.
Please find her an appropriate home with a thinking horseman. And
please be aware of the crisis in this country of too many good horses
and not enough good horsemen. We must be responsible owners and not
contribute to the horrible cruelty that results from bad handling and
irresponsible breeding for profit. Are you aware that 80% of pleasure
horses end up at the slaughterhouse? Most horse owners have no idea
what these horses go through.
Like it or not, you bought her and now you are responsible for her
welfare. Horses are not disposable toys, although many people act like
they are. Your conscience will be your guide. Please try to see that
this horse is an innocent victim. She is lovely and smart and has a
proud heart. She wants to be ok. She doesn't want to be difficult.
She needs more time to develop trust. My favorite saying is: "all any
horse needs is a girl who thinks the whole world revolves around him".
Once the horse feels that depth of caring from the owner the trust
will begin. Without it, the horse will never be a trusting companion.
Best of luck to you and this unfortunate mare. Let me know what
happens.
Martine
From: Yvonne Lehey at Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:34:16 +1030
To: John Crago
Cc: Mittelstrass & Partner
Subject: Re: sudden changes
On Wed, Jan 21, 1998 at 11:06:42PM -0800, John Crago wrote:
Hi John,
> I hope that the 'expert' you're referring to is the 'Horseman List' as I
> don't consider myself an expert in the field of horsmanship. (There is only
> one 'expert' on my farm and he's a big ole' white horse called Honky Tonk!)
Well, I really meant you when talking about the expert. I have been
following this list for several months now, and your posts seem to be,
by far, the most expert ones, and so nice and modest. You seem to be a
real good horseman to me.
> As you've cc'd the list I'll respond publicly because it may help
> some other list members who may be in a similar situation. (Yvonne,
> if you feel that I should not have responded publicly, please kick
> my 'butt' privately <G>)
Oops, I intended to post it privately to you. But no worries, as they
say here, other people might have been interested.
> Obviously it would be helpful to know exactly what this "very
> careful and thorough" preparation was and over what duration.
We had two young mares whom we worked at the same time. While Shalima
made very fast progress, Carmina took a lot longer. In fact, after
having overcome her initial mistrust, Shalima has been an unusually
fast learner, always relaxed, cooperative and getting the message
almost immediately. In fact, she reminds me of the Haflingers I used
to "break in" in the past - never a problem.
We did the usual stuff to give trust and confidence to an unhandled
horse, i.e. a lot of quiet stroking all over the body with hands,
crop, plastic bags, pads, etc. (friendly game, even though I did not
know the term then), pick up the feet, getting her used to being led
around, tied. Then we showed her the saddle, put it on (everything
gently and several times - all this took about 2 or 3 months), lead
her around with it. Then one person held her (loosely) at the head and
stroke her, and I started getting on her back, in the usual slow and
careful way, halfway up, then down, then a bit more, leaning over,
then sat on her without moving, just stroking, then Greg lead her
around with me being passive. Well you know the procedure. Carmina
remained calm for a while, then suddenly got afraid and had these
reactions. The same when we tie her or have her shoed. She can stand
there quietly for quite some time, then suddenly jumps backwards. Our
farrier is a very calm person. She still spooks from time to time. We
now stand at her head when she is shoed, without tying her. Same
story, she stays calm for a while, then pulls backward. There must be
a tiger in her mind or something....
What worries me most, that she just does not seem to be able to learn
"for good". Some time she is very cooperative, and then everything
seems to be gone again. Very frustrating. Same for the frame of mind:
one day kind and loving, the other day showing her teeth, hind hoofs
in my direction etc. You just never know what is on the menue today,
even though she did get a lot better (quoting Greg).
> Let's deal with pulling backwards 'violently' (in Carmina's mind
> this is simply instinctive self-preservation behaviour). I will give
> you my interpretation of the Kel Jeffrey method of stopping this
> undesirable behaviour.
Thanks for this precious advice. Will certainly try it.
> And of course ... Carmina will know EXACTLY how you feel and that
> will give you an on-going problem until you can change the way you
> feel. (presuming of course that you decide to continue with this
> horse).
I know that this is the biggest problem. But HOW do you change feelings?
> Hard for me to say without being there. How you feel is vitally
> important to your horse. I think it's a lot easier to hide your true
> feelings from your spouse than from a horse.
Got a purebred husband, too, who is quite sensitive..... And with
spouses you can discuss problems, which is quite helpful.
> Unfortunately Yvonne, this is a decision only you and your family
> can make. Without being there to see you, your family and the horse
> it is very difficult to advise you. To help you in your decision
> I'll tell you a story about a little white pony
Very good story, John. I think that you helped me to decide to give
Carmina another (warmhearted) try.
Thank you for all your good advice. I appreciate it very much.
Regards from SA
Yvonne
FromL Marie Ilchuk
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:32:03 -0700
To: Yvonne Lehey
Subject: Carmina
Dear Yvonne and Greg,
Hi to you both! I raise Arabians and would like to ask a few questions.
How old is Carmina? This preperation for riding, what did it consist of?
Does she pull back when tied or in hand? What is happening around her
when she pulls back? You mentioned high stress. What do you mean by
high stress?
The trying to kick, biting, and pushing appears to be a dominance issue,
but the rest sounds like a very scared animal.
Can you give me some examples of the situations that resulted in this
behavior?
If you answer, please e-mail me privately.
Sincerely
Marie
From: martine sherril
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:20:05 -0500 (EST)
To: Yvonne Lehey
Subject: Re: sudden changes
> Thanks for your mail (and lecturing). I know all this, of course. But
> as you know, between knowing and doing there is a deep ditch into
> which you tend to fall very painfully... And I am a PNH beginner, but
> willing!
> Well, I do not thinks she is THAT unfortunate (I have been a bit more
> with my bruised ribs, jumped-on toes etc...). She still has horsey
> friends, a big paddock, and, as you can tell of my post to John, we
> are not irresponsible, and thinking about what to do very carefully. If
> I do not find the ideal rider-owner for the, she can always be sold as
> a broodmare to an arab stud, having good papers and former success in
> the showring.
>
> Regards
> Yvonne
>
Yvonne,
Whew!!! It's good to hear that you are a responsible horse owner. As
someone who is very active in Equine Rescue I receive numerous calls
each week about horses that are headed to the auction/slaughterhouse
unless WE do something about it. I get really sick of people jumping
into the horse world without a clue, ruining a good horse, and then
dumping it when they lose interest or get scared. This is in no way
meant to imply that YOU are one of these people!
I find that most horse people are totally unaware of what can happen
to a horse once they sell it. The nicest horses can (and do) end up in
night- mare situations.
I'm glad this mare has a nice place to live and a secure future.
Please keep asking for advice from this list. It is a great place to
learn and everyone seems to put humane treatment at the top of their
list!
Bye for now!
Martine
On Thu, Jan 22, 1998 at 07:30:37AM -0500, bob sagely wrote:
Hi Bob and all,
> Been reading about Carmina and her owners. Please understnad that I
> am making some observations based on experience (having seen this
> over and over and over). It would be nice if we could boil all this
> down to one or two simple truism that always held no matter the
> horse, person or situation. It just does not work that way.
Sounds as if I did not make it clear. I DID approach Carmina with a
positive, calm attitude (always do so for all my horses), tried to
overcome her problems with lots of patience and time. The reason for
my mail is that it did not work....
> But if I were to try and boil this down (maybe refine is a more
> friendly term) I would start with time. This is a beginning point
> for me because in every situation where I have had a "job" (some of
> the best ever) where I worked long hours with horses, the horses I
> worked with (no matter where they started) ended up developing a
> relationship with me. You don't develop one without time. Whenever I
> have had a customer whose horses have been shod by me for a number
> of years, it always develops that they are among the best behaved
> that I have ever shod. On the other hand, when I have been asked to
> "fix" a "problem" and then expected to do it "now", or in very short
> order, well, that just never works.
Of course, before having her shod, I did a lot of preparation work,
teaching her to have her feet picked up, held and cleaned CALMLY,
starting from the scratch (the previous owner had told us that she had
been shod before without problems, but we noticed that we better not
trust this). That worked ok, but then the shoeing session turned into
some nightmare, as Carmina started jumping and pulling and rearing
etc. in the middle of it. We did not really realize then that she had
a problem with being tied, only having pulled back slightly once
during my previous training. Since then, we do not tie her anymore for
shoeing, as I said before. Since we started with PNH, we tie them less
and less. But you know that from time to time, they have to be tied
for some reason or another.
> The other element that is fundamental is you, er, me, well, us, the
> human part of this partnership equation. Can we expect a horse to
> accept us if we have a " bad attitude" about their behavior.
Well, again, I did not have a "bad attitude" towards her for quite
some time. Only got more or less desperate about all these
over-and-over violent reactions (and disrespect, as I have learned
since). I must admit that she heavily shook my trust into myself as
being a more or less experienced and positive horse handler! Thank
God, I still am for every other horse we have and had (and some of
them are and were difficult...).
Regards
Yvonne
From: Yvonne Lehey at Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:16:07 +1030
To: horseman@orednet.org
Cc: Greg Lehey
Subject: Re: The answer is...in the question?
On Thu, Jan 22, 1998 at 01:51:52PM -0800, Panda and Henry Meeker wrote:
Wow! I DID get flamed (except for John, thanks, John, for your
understanding and nice attitude)! That will teach me to ask for
advice... But, anyway, interesting experience.
> Here Here! Spoken like a farrier, who is all too frequently
> expected to compensate for the inexperience, stubborness, stupidity,
> or laziness of the owners.
See my reply to Bob about my "inexperienced, subborn, stupid, lazy"
approach.
> I was reminded of this last summer, when my regular shoer was
> unable to make his rounds in my area, and my well-behaved herd were
> so bratty that I barely recognized. This savvy horseman, however,
> smiled at my apologies, and told me that he didn't blame them, since
> they have been trimmed or shod for years now by one person, and all
> of a sudden were expected to trust and cooperate with another person
> they'd never seen. He was quiet and gentle, and somehow we got
> through the day, but it was one ordeal after another.
I have always been sort of proud of my horses in the past, being the
most relaxed, gentle and easy to shoe (and handle) horses in miles and
miles around....
Thanks for all the interest.
Yvonne, Greg, Carmina and all their unfortunate horses
Subject: Re: sudden changes
To: Greg Lehey
Cc: horseman@orednet.org, Yvonne Lehey
Hi Yvonne, Greg & all,
And thanks for your detailed replies (Yvonne & Greg). To save time I'm
replying to both of you and cc'ing as requested.
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:08:34 +1030 Greg Lehey wrote:
> I suppose I should point out that we started with Carmina before we
> had found out about NH. Since then, we've changed our attitude to a
> lot of things.
The Jeffrey method relies on having the horse in an 'unbreakable'
enclosure of some kind.
> This assumes firm fences. She's liable to tear down the wire fences
> we have.
Firstly Greg, you definitely must have an 'unbreakable yard to carry
out this exercise in, I use natural log rails for my yards. Guess that
steel yards would work just as well but I've never used them.
Secondly, you will have a problem if you don't truly believe that the
Jeffrey method I detailed for you will work when you try it. As a
total stranger I would approach Carmina with calm, assured, absolute
confidence and the horse would sense this.
> The big problem here is that IMO this whole behaviour comes from
> memories. If she can remember that she was successful in the past,
> she can remember that she was able to pull the rope out of the
> holder's hand. As a result, I must say I don't have much hope in
> this method.
In my minds 'eye' I would already have a very clear picture of this
beautiful Arab 'lady' standing perfectly calm for me within 20-30
minutes (might take me 20-30 days<G>, but my mental image is
unshakeable). This is most important ... it would appear that you
would set out presuming that it won't work for you and I can
definitely tell you .... "it won't work Greg!".
Thirdly, we're all bound by time constraints (I should be unsaddling
my 15 horses right now but I'm typing this because she sounds like a
really nice horse and I hope this will help), I firmly believe it is
the quality of the time you spend that is the key factor rather than
the amount of time.
> If I had the time, I'd certainly take her in hand myself, but I don't.
If you can only spend 5 high-quality minutes (i.e. doing exactly the
right thing with the right feelings emanating from your body language)
and you do this 4 times per week, that should only take 20 minutes
from your week.
Sounds like this horse is definitely worth 20 minutes a week to me!!
Greg, you say the results I achieved with the little white pony
surprise you because she came to me with a pre-established 'pull-back'
behaviour. The key thing is that I had nothing to do with teaching her
that. Her previous owners encouraged and rewarded her (unknowingly of
course!) for pulling back. I never ever 'rewarded' her for displaying
that behaviour and she knows that.
So with me, this little white pony and I just, 'wiped-the-slate-clean'
and started afresh. As I write this now, she has finished a pony ride
for a couple of 3 year olds and has been tied-up outside the yards by
the parents about an hour ago (guess she'll be happy to see me when I
finish this post). I know that this is not ideal treatment but me and
my horses have to live in the 'real world' and I train them to accept
this as part of their normal working day.
> Carmina had learnt to get away with everything by being violent, and early
> on we thought she was going to kill herself when trying to avoid being
> shod.
Possibly had she not been restrained when the shoeing was taking place
there would have been no need to go through the action described
above. My standard practice is not to 'tie' the horse for any of the
following situations:
* Cleaning feet.
* Trimming feet.
* Shoeing.
* Worming.
* Saddling
* Injecting, etc, etc.
I find that tying horses up for any of the above situations only
causes 'complications' in about half of the cases.
(I think Bob Sagely posted some time ago that, in his farrier's career
he rarely, if ever, <sorry Bob I've deleted the post!> tied a horse he
was shoeing, nor did he usually let the owner or anyone else hold the
horse.)
I agree entirely with Bob's approach to this matter. However Bob would
have been very much a 'NH' farrier to my mind and very much an
exception to the 'norm'.
Without trying to 'cheat' farriers out of work I would really question
why you would attempt to shoe a horse that is not thoroughly trained
as a riding mount. My horses have been doing approx. 150-200
kilometres per week for the past 4 weeks and none of them are shod. I
would doubt that Carmina is presently exceeding that mileage in her
present mental state.
> I don't know what to do, but I agree with another poster who
> suggested that she would end in the glue factory if we sold her. I
> think that in the short term we should work with her slowly, gain
> her confidence, and not try to ask more of her than we're prepared
> to follow through with. That way both she and Yvonne can calm down
> a bit.
That sounds sensible, I don't think there's really anything wrong with
Carmina other than possibly having had undesirable treatment in her
past years.
> When I have the time, I'll do some work with her myself, but I don't
> see that happening often enough to make a big difference.
Again Greg, your lack of confidence in a happy outcome bothers me and
I think it could possibly jeopardise the entire outcome. (Try taking
some *positivity cookies* <G>).
I'm glad my previous post has 'enthused' Yvonne to have another
'loving' (very loving Yvonne!<G>) attempt at resolving these problems
that Carmina perceives as her 'reality'.
Regards from Snowy River Country,
John Crago
PS: I would be interested in being advised of your progress and providing
further help if you wish to mail me privately.
To: Greg Lehey
Subject: Re: sudden changes
> Hi Greg and Yvonne,
I was reading the exchange between John and you two. I thought I could add a
little insight. John is and until a year ago I was a trailguide. I think John owns
his business, I was the manager at mine. I think that we as trailguides see first
hand every day what a difference confidence can make when handling a horse. My
customers would come to ride and depending not so much on their ability but their
confidence he horse would act differently. I trained all these horses to be child
safe (some of these horses came to me a wreck, pulling back, biting , kicking,
etc.) but when they made it to the public the bad habits were gone. If a customer
would be afraid of the horse when he was trying to ride it was a sure bet the
horse took advantage. If I traded the person horses it was a given the horse would
go back to being well mannered while the person's new mount would start to take
advantage of the rider. If the next person was a more confident rider then the
horse would act well mannered.Confidence is a huge part of training. Many people
forget that until they see the effects day after day.
>> Secondly, you will have a problem if you don't truly believe that the
>> Jeffrey method I detailed for you will work when you try it. As a total
>> stranger I would approach Carmina with calm, assured, absolute confidence
>> and the horse would sense this.
I think that is what John is trying to say here. I would approach in the same
manner John isdescribing. I know from my own experience that when I go out hoping
something will work there
is a 50/50 chance it will. If I go out knowing it will work, even if I have never
done it before it will
always work.
> I suppose I have a problem then, because I don't have a religious
> faith in anything. I don't believe this is as important as you
> suggest, though: the important thing is to approach in the *hope* that
> it will work and, as you say, behave in a calm and confident manner
> towards the horse.
You don't need to have religious faith in anything for this to work, but the
confidence that it will isa must. Case in point, we got a mare once that had only
been used for driving, but she had been saddle broke. I went to ride her for the
first time and before I got weight in the stirup she had taken off running
and bucking. When I got her caught I knew I had to put my nerves aside because I
was making her
nervous. I got on her and rode with no trouble. My nerves were the problem not the
horse. The horse
picked up on this very quickly. This is were confidence is important.
>> In my minds 'eye' I would already have a very clear picture of this
>> beautiful Arab 'lady' standing perfectly calm for me within 20-30 minutes
>> (might take me 20-30 days<G>, but my mental image is unshakeable). This is
>> most important ... it would appear that you would set out presuming that it
>> won't work for you
>
> That's incorrect. If I start on this method, it'll be because I give
> it a reasonable chance of success.
>> and I can definitely tell you .... "it won't work Greg!".
A reasonable chance isn't enough. You need to "know" it will work, not that it may
work.
> Or are you saying that the horse will not deduce from the fact that it
> could rip the rope out of other people's hands that it could do it
> with you?
A horse may try to rip the rope from John, but if it doesn't work the
first time the horse will thinktwice the second time. It is kind of
like a horse that likes to eat on the trail. The horse knows it can't
do this with me, but it will try once with a customer. If the customer
will let it eat the one time it will continue to eat the rest of the
ride. If the customer won't let the horse eat, the horse won't try it
again during that ride. In my experience if you fail the first test
you have to work harder to get the habit in this case eating to stop.
> Again Greg, your lack of confidence in a happy outcome bothers me and I
>> think it could possibly jeopardise the entire outcome.
>
> I think this is a misassumption on your part. If I weren't expecting
> a happy outcome, I wouldn't be doing this. My question is "How do I
> best achieve a happy outcome?".
I think John has answered your question. If you have the confidence in
yourself that you have the ability to make this horse a good horse you
will do it. If you just hope you can do it you may not get it
done. Your lack of confidence will show and usually at an important
moment, at that point you will have to take a step back and try again.
I think that the fact things are getting better is a great sign. You
are showing confidence even if you don't know it. Horses need a sure
leader, even if your time is little every 5 minutes counts and will
build a relationship. That is what will make this work.
Good Luck to the both of you
Stephanie Wade
From: Yvonne Lehey at Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:35:45 +1030
To: milchuk
Cc: Greg Lehey
Subject: Re: Carmina
On Wed, Jan 21, 1998 at 09:32:03PM -0700, Marie Ilchuk wrote:
Hi Marie,
> Hi to you both! I raise Arabians and would like to ask a few questions.
> How old is Carmina? This preperation for riding, what did it consist of?
> Does she pull back when tied or in hand? What is happening around her
> when she pulls back? You mentioned high stress. What do you mean by
> high stress?
> The trying to kick, biting, and pushing appears to be a dominance issue,
> but the rest sounds like a very scared animal.
> Can you give me some examples of the situations that resulted in this
> behavior?
You must have seen my long post to John, telling him quite a lot about
or previous work with Carmina. Some more details, anyway:
She pulls back both when tied and in hand, but she got much better
about it already. Nothing special happens around her when doing this,
that is so strange. She just stands there, nice and relaxed, and
suddenly, without any apparent reason: BANG!
Another strange point: I had the impression that Carmina has the "best
nerves" of all the horses, i.e. she does not get frightened easily -
only when she decides so. As long as she is relaxed, everything is
fine. She was the first to accept the crop, walking over a plastic
foil, approaching rattling things etc. That horse is an enigma to
me. With high stress I meant that she seems to build it up inside
herself like an explosion and without external influence.
I know now that Carmina shows disrespect to me with her behaviour. And
somehow I have the impression that she is not so much scared but
builds up a "scary reaction" because she wants to get rid of a
situation she does not like (like working). I might be wrong on this,
of course. A very typical thing: when she does not like to do
something she is asked she squeals (and occasionally menaces to kick
or bite).
My problem is that after all this I am scared of her (not much, but it
is obviously enough). In fact, I do not want to end up in hospital,
nor do I want Greg to. And I can always TRY not to be apprehensive -
my guts are not convinced! And I have learnt in the past that it is a
very good thing to listen to what your feelings try to tell you!
Sigh!
About the situations who led to Carmina's behaviour: After doing the
preparatory work, like handling on the ground, (already there, she
jumped and pushed me or pulled back etc. when she decided that there
was a tiger sitting in the next bush), when I tried to get on her back
(leaning over at the beginning) she started jumping, so I seriously
bruised my ribs (ouch for the next 3 weeks...), then, when at last I
got on to her (gently and slowly, of course), she stood there, then
suddenly jumped backwards, or did it after a while when Greg led her
around with me on her back. The list is long.
A thought comes to me: I wonder whether Carmina is not sort of
switching her mind off for a while and then, when coming back to
reality, gets frightened about it? And I am afraid that, if this is
the case, it might be hopeless.
We have had (and partly bred) arabs for the last 20 years and love
them for their intelligence and their spirit. Greg and I are very fond
of high spirited horses and, up to now, always thought that we were
> uite able to handle them with gentleness and success. That's why all
this story is so very frustrating to me.
Ah yes, I forgot: about the very scared animal: this morning when I
went to visit the horses in the paddock they all lay there and had a
nap. I went around and gave them a pat. Carmina, too, looked at me
with a sleepy eye and chewed her lips... When I asked her to get up
she did so in a very relaxed and slow way.
Regards
Yvonne
From: Yvonne Lehey at Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:58:35 +1030
To: Amie Slate
Cc: Greg Lehey
Subject: Re: The answer is...in the question?
On Thu, Jan 22, 1998 at 06:19:07PM -0800, Amie Slate wrote:
Hi Amie,
> I can imagine how having a horse react so violently in spite of all your best
> efforts must really shake your confidence. Good luck. I hope it turns into a
> positive experience for all of you!
After some exchange of mail with John we decided to give Carmina
another chance. Greg is going to work with her over the next few
weeks, as she is not showing disrespect to him.
We will keep everybody informed about the outcome later.
Thanks for your sympathy.
Yvonne
From: Carol
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:44:59 -0600
To: Yvonne Lehey
Subject: Re: The answer is...in the question?
Dear Yvonne,
I'm gonna jump in here just a moment. First of all, I think you've been given
some good advice by others. Second, I do think your first post written in
frustration gave some wrong impressions, the post by your husband cleared up most
of them for me and now this post finished it. As I sit here nursing yet another
badly bruised foot from being stepped on by my horse....(my fault, not hers) it
does shake our confidence when they react badly to something. I think part of it
is that we are trying so hard to be 'nice'...Koala did so well except when tied.
Then she would rear back and hop. She broke one halter and even pulled the snap
out of the clip on the lead. Bent that sucker completely around. They are so
strong. I think (could be wrong) I sent you a post on how to get over the panic
of being tied. But on further thought...I think the respect issue has to be
addressed first. You don't need a round pen for it either. A situation occured
here where she was biting the goats on the back during feeding to get them out of
her way. Naturally, my adrenalin skyrocketed. As it does if I see anything
getting hurt. I just went through the ''roof'' yelling and chasing her away from
the feed bin. Then I kept it up for quite a while until she was chewing really
well with her nose almost on the ground. Then I used the technique of turning my
shoulder toward her and letting her approach. The minute I saw her ears go back
or any indication she was going to ''get'' the goats, I chased her off again. By
45 minutes of this...she was coming in and being good and sweet. Now...I was
really protecting the goats from being hurt but I noticed a side effect I had not
expected. She suddenly became submissive to me... She was watching me closely
and actually acting different. When I tied her to the post and told her to
stay...she did. For the entire time I was cleaning up the pasture of
''droppings''. She put her head down as I approached her (in the same way I
always had approached) and gradually over the next few days the spookiness just
disappeared. It is so weird. Since then, I have had to do it once more. This
time when she didn't want to be haltered and backed away from me. I swung the
halter and lead and made her run away...when she came back I looked for licking
and chewing and if it wasn't there, I just chased her away again. I always
halter pre-feed. If she doesn't want to halter, then she gets no feed. At
first, I would tie her while she was eating and then groom her. I was able to
finish the grooming before she finished eating. As soon as she was done, it was
off for some ground work. I did not give her the chance to fight being tied.
Every morning it was the same routine. If I felt the least tension in the lead
line (it might only be that she was lagging), then I turned her to the left
suddenly then right. In order to rear or kick she has to stop her back feet. Do
not let that happen. If she moved up and aimed that mouth at me it met the clip
of the lead on the side of the jaw. I added no force, just held it ready and she
knocked into it. By holding that close to her jaw, she could not move her head
up or down or lag without me being immediately aware of it. Holding her at arms
length kept me safer. I really really believe that making the halter the very
first thing she has to accept whenever she approaches me kept me safer. I had a
few anxious moments when she tried to get weird by rearing and I just threw the
lead at her with my other hand. Still holding on to it of course. She didn't
like the lead flying into her face and it ''broke'' her concentration on rearing
and then I pulled her into a turn by walking back toward her butt and making her
turn into me. My 'safe' zone is by her belly. She can't hit, bite or kick me
there. Well should say about two feet from her body. From there, I can tap her
butt to make her move her feet while pulling on the lead and she can't rear or
kick if she is off balance and that is where I would keep her. Off balance.
Then doing more and more endless circles and working. You can almost 'read' the
expression on their faces that says 'okay okay...enough is enough..I give up'.
And what joy when they perk their ears and keep their eyes on you. Makes all the
effort worthwhile. I pray for fast healing both physically and mentally. After
all, she wasn't being mean...she was being a horse. As long as you are boss
mare, she is trustworthy as much as any other horse. LOL, Carol and Koala.
From: Marie Ilchuk
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:10:08 -0700
To: Yvonne Lehey
Subject: Re: Carmina
Dear Yvonne,
I read your letter with great interest.
One of my mares does the unpredicted pull back that you describe. She
is a very beautiful, very well papered and very well trained gentle
soul. She can be standing in the barn with all the horses munching
contentedly, and with no provacation or warning, she will pull back. It
doesn't happen very often but it sounds very much like you describe.
It has only happened in the barn, and not often, but I am always aware
of the posibility, and [sigh] yes it does affect how I feel about her.
She was 11 years old when I bought her. She has been with us for 3 1/2
years and the problem is slowly disappearing. In the beginning I would
react with panic when she did it. Now if it happens, I step calmly back
and give her a pat on the bum. It is interesting tho that she is boss
mare of the herd. When I bring them all in at night, she is the last
one in and seems to want to stay at the back door of the barn and stand
guard. Is your girl a boss lady?
Something is niggling at my brain. You said Carmina was small. Couple
that with the squeals and occasional bite or kick and I would wonder if
maybe her hormone levels are off. It is almost stallion behavior. Are
her heat cycles normal? Is there anything about her coat that is
unusual? Maybe a tad dry, or shedding out late? Just a thought.
I sympathize with the rib injury. I have only had one bad wreck, but it
tore muscles away from the ribs and Lordy- be, it hurt something fierce
for a long time! And no it was not the horses fault. My son came
roaring around the barn on the trike while I was riding bareback. I was
not a good enough rider to handle that situation and got dumped and
stepped on. Ouch! I hurts to think of it.
I would love to hear from you again to see how she is coming along, and
if the hormone thing is a possibility.
Best Wishes!
Marie
To: Yvonne Lehey
Subject: Re: The answer is...in the question?
Howdy Yvonne,
Glad you wanted to respond. I can see that I might be able to add to what I
posted specifically to you.
> Sounds as if I did not make it clear. I DID approach Carmina with a
> positive, calm attitude (always do so for all my horses), tried to
> overcome her problems with lots of patience and time. The reason for
> my mail is that it did not work....
Here is point worth reiterating, over and over and over. How do you know?
You have kind of drawn a line in the sand and said to yourself, this is not
working for me and the mare. You did say it was working for your husband
and he doesn;t have the time to work with her? Maybe it will just take
longer if you are to be "the one".
> Well, again, I did not have a "bad attitude" towards her for quite
> some time. Only got more or less desperate about all these
> over-and-over violent reactions (and disrespect, as I have learned
> since). I must admit that she heavily shook my trust into myself as
> being a more or less experienced and positive horse handler! Thank
> God, I still am for every other horse we have and had (and some of
> them are and were difficult...).
This is a particularly difficult concept for us humans to grasp, if it
works for others, why not here? If it works with most, why not all? I guess
it just doesn't work that way. You know for the horse it is about now, how
are we getting along now? We can set up perhaps, a more understanding and
patient horse but it really seems to go back to here and now, each time,
what side of the corral did you get up on (horse and/or human)? So don't be
hard on yourself for having become this way, just understand that success
for you and this horse is no likely if you stay this way. She will need
more than you have given til now, regardless of how much that seems
compared to "other" horses. Good luck, I know if you think on it you will
do the "right" thing for her, whatever that ends up being.
Respectfully,
Bob Sagely
Sage Horsemanship Website
http://www.orednet.org/~rsagely
From: Marie Ilchuk
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:43:03 -0700
To: Yvonne Lehey
CC: groggyhimself@lemis.com
Dear Yvonne and Greg,
I have been doing my chores and I cant get Carmina out of my mind. I
found something in one of my vet books that I thought I would pass on to
you just in case it might help.
It comes from "Current Therapy in Equine Medicine", book 3.
Estrous Cycle-Related Performance Problems [page 635]
A relatively common complaint of trainers and riders is variable
performance or trainability of mares related to the estrous cycle. In
addition to undesirable estrus in performance situations, complaints
include periods of deterioration, either mild or marked, in performance
or temperament associated with a particular stage of the ovarian cycle.
Some mares are hyperexcitable and difficult to handle at certain stages
of the cycle. Some appear particularly sensitive to weight or
manipulation that might affect the area of the ovaries during the
periovulatory period of the cycle. Cases of colic like discomfort
associated with ovulation have been reported. In some cases the problem
behavior is associated with the diestrous phase of the cycle, but in
most it is associated with estrus or ovulation. The riders and trainers
may report that the mare experiences abnormally frequent or long estrous
periods. In a number of cases such behavior has been associated with
short cycles.
Performance and training problems are part of the complex array of
human-animal interactions that are difficult to evaluate objectively.
The history of the problem and the various corrective measures that have
been attempted may be difficult to elicit. However, in several cases we
have systematically evaluated sexual behavior, ovarian activity, and
steroid hormones over two or more cycles. Significant changes in
temperament, trainability, and tractability can occur in association
with apparently normal ovarian cycles and estrus. In most instances
estrus was associated with changes in temperament and tractability, that
resulted in less desirable performance. However, in two recent cases
the problem behavior was associated with diestrus.
Stallionlike Behavior [page 636]
Male sexual behavior responses are not a normal part of mare behavior.
For example, while it is normal for cows to mount other cows, it is
unusual for mares to mount other horses. Any persistent male-typical
behavior, such as posture and gait, vocalization pattern, herding,
teasing, elimination-marking behavior, copulatory responses, or
intermale aggression, in a mare should be viewed as abnormal. Such
behavior suggests the presence, at one time or another of abnormally
high androgen levels. The two most common sources of androgen
associated with stallionlike behavior in mares are exogenous steroids,
such as testosterone, estrogen, or androgenic anabolic steroids, and
ovarian tumors. Stallionlike behavior often persists for weeks to
months after the source of androgen has been removed and measurable
circulating androgens have returned to mare levels. However, the
intensity of male-type behavior usually subsides within a few weeks
after removal of androgen.
************************
Please dont get me wrong. I am not a vet and I am not attempting to
diagnose! I thought you might associate some of the above information
with Carmines behavior. I think you have multiple things happening at
the same time with her. You have a handle on some of them, but maybe
this is the missing link [???]
If not, forgive me for boring you!
Sincerely,
Marie
From: John Crago
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 14:42:09 PST
Subject: Re: sudden changes
To: Greg Lehey
Cc: horsman@orednet.org
Hi Greg & all,
And thanks for your reply.
> I suppose I have a problem then, because I don't have a religious
> faith in anything.
I don't have a religious faith in anything much either mate!
However I do have absolute faith in myself (probably to the point of being
considered an egotistical 'pain in the arse' by other people with less
confidence <G>)
> I don't believe this is as important as you suggest,
Unfortunately it is vital from the horse's point of view. It certainly helps
to have an unshakeable mental image of the final satisfactory outcome and
firmly believe that you can easily achieve this.
> though: the important thing is to approach in the *hope* that
> it will work and, as you say, behave in a calm and confident manner
> towards the horse.
Sounds like you both do that anyway as a matter of course.
>> In my minds 'eye' I would already have a very clear picture of this
>> beautiful Arab 'lady' standing perfectly calm for me within 20-30 minutes
>> (might take me 20-30 days<G>, but my mental image is unshakeable). This is
>> most important ... it would appear that you would set out presuming that
>> it won't work for you
> That's incorrect. If I start on this method, it'll be because I give
> it a reasonable chance of success.
Sorry for misunderstanding but your initial post didn't exactly 'ooze'
confidence on this point. In fact "a reasonable chance of success" is also
not really 'brimming' with confidence.
> Well, I've decided to have a crack at it. Read on.
Good for you, I'm mightily impressed and I'll help you in any way I can.
>> thing is that I had nothing to do with teaching her that. Her previous
>> owners encouraged and rewarded her (unknowingly of course!) for pulling
>> back. I never ever 'rewarded' her for displaying that behaviour and she
>> knows that.
> Fine, but this is in contradiction to what you said before:
No it's not a contradiction and you yourself have provided the answer in
your following statement.
>> "If you release the pressure before the horse 'rips' the rope out of your
>> hand, the horse will never know that it can: ('rip' the rope out of your
>> hand)."
> Or are you saying that the horse will not deduce from the fact that it
> could rip the rope out of other people's hands that it could do it
> with you?
Exactly, spot-on, absolutely correct!!!! I'll demonstrate with a very short
story:
In the course of some remedial training with a customer's horse I noticed
that her other horse (lovely looking stallion!) was being TOTALLY
disrespectful towards her. Pushing, shoving, attempting to walk through her,
etc.
I ceased working on her 'problem' horse and took hold of 'Friendly's' lead
rope and walked 5 metres across the yard and stopped abruptly. Just as
'Friendly' was about to walk through me he 'walked' into the sharp point of
John's elbow moving rapidly into his nose.
John's elbow contacted his nose with an amazing burst of speed. Set up the
same procedure again but contacted his nose with a little less force. Tried
again and guess what???
On the third attempt 'Friendly' stopped a good 1/2 metre back and remained
standing to 'attention' ears pricked forward.
Gave the rope back to his owner and asked her to walk and stop (no elbow
yet) and ... horse walked all over her again.
John took over the lead rope and walked off and stopped and .... of course,
horse stopped a respectful 1/2 metre behind John.
Now Greg, the interesting thing is that it took me less time to reverse this
'learned' behaviour than it did to tell you about it.
It then took me no more time to show his slightly built owner how to stop
him acting this way with her.
And yes, the little white pony knew she could rip the rope out of her
previous owner's hands but, she doesn't (to this day) have any experience of
ever ripping a rope out of my hands. More importantly, she has never ever
experienced the feeling of not being able to pull away when handled by me.
Whenever she does pull back on a lead I'm holding I INSTANTLY release all
pressure, but the INSTANT she stops retreating I reapply that same soft
relentless pressure on the horsemans halter.
If you can understand/accept this slight shift of mindset you'll definitely
succeed with Carmina.
Once you can really apply this method with lightning precision and timing it
tends to make the horses so soft and responsive re giving to pressure that
it still amazes me today. (please note that your timing is absolutely
critical to succeed).
>> My horses have been doing approx. 150-200 kilometres per week for the
>> past 4 weeks and none of them are shod.
> That depends a lot on the horse and the terrain, though. I presume
> your horses hoofs don't strike firelight from the flint stones every
> stride :-)
No mate, not unless I'm out for a really 'fast one' and even then you need
shoes to generate sparks. My 9yo grandaughter is always fascinated by the
sparks flying off my horses feet on those rare occassions that I shoe our
personal riding mounts. (We occassionally take moonlight rides over well
known terrain)
>> Again Greg, your lack of confidence in a happy outcome bothers me and I
>> think it could possibly jeopardise the entire outcome.
> I think this is a misassumption on your part. If I weren't expecting
> a happy outcome, I wouldn't be doing this.
Again, sorry for misunderstanding you but didn't see confidence ringing out
in your original post.
> My question is "How do I best achieve a happy outcome?".
Read what I've sent to you and Yvonne very carefully and ask me more
> uestions re the Jeffrey method if necessary.
> My problem with the Jeffrey method is that it requires equipment we
> don't have. Building a well fenced-in enclosure is expensive. If
> it's what it takes to solve the problem, then we might do it. But I
> don't think it's necessary.
Possibly not. If I called into your place this afternoon to attempt to
resolve this matter I'd simply use whatever was on hand. You must have
something solid that you tied her to when she attempted to
'wreck-the-neighbourhood' during the shoeing episode. Possibly you could
start with that if she has unpleasant memories of that event.
The key thing is to ensure that you never get into a 'wrestling match' you
can't win. i.e. If you run out of rope when she's pulling back simply let
the end of the rope go. When she stops retreating reclaim the rope and start
again. (this is not ideal but if you get into trouble don't start tugging on
the rope!)
I'd prefer you started with a much longer (22' - 45') rope in the first
place. In my experience a horse will rarely feel the need to retreat more
than 2-3 steps if it loses the pressure in the very first instant.
> One thing that hasn't come across very well in this story is that
> Carmina is improving.
I have gathered the impression that she has improved with you.
> In any case, I've decided to take 5 or 10 minutes a day for the next
> few weeks and see how she progresses. I'll send out a report when
> there's something interesting to say.
That's more than enough time Greg and please feel free to ask for assistance
anytime. I must say that Styce, my wonderful Arabian mare is the equine
'love-of-my-life' and I did 'prick' up my ears when I found out Carmina was
an Arab.
Best of luck from Snowy River Country,
John Crago
From: Chuck George and Sarah Chabot
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:10:56 -0500
To: Horseman@orednet.org, jmcrago@srm.blamac.com.au
Subject: Re: Sudden changes
Hey John, waddya mean?
> More importantly, she has never ever experienced the feeling of not being
> able to pull away when handled by me.Whenever she does pull back on a lead
> I'm holding I INSTANTLY release all pressure, but the INSTANT she stops
> retreating I reapply that same soft relentless pressure on the horsemans
> halter.
I don't get this because you are releasing for the backward or maybe even
lifting the forehand... ? How I'd been trying to do this is keep some
tension on the line (without trying to stop the thing, fergodsakes) then
release for forward... Why do you do that? Maybe it keeps down the panic?
Maybe it makes going against the pressure fruitless because it's just more
work? What's your experience with that? How come this doesn't just teach
rearing or running backward?
The answer must be in the next bit, but I'd sure like elucidation:
> In my experience a horse will rarely feel the need to retreat more
> than 2-3 steps if it loses the pressure in the very first instant.
Just interested in clarification, not challenging you!
Thanks,
Sarah Chabot
From: "Sharon Foley"
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:06:10 -0500
To: "Horseman"
Subject: Re: Sudden changes
Sarah asked:
> Maybe it makes going against the pressure fruitless because it's just more
> work? What's your experience with that? How come this doesn't just teach
> rearing or running backward?
>
> The answer must be in the next bit, but I'd sure like elucidation:
About this:
>> In my experience a horse will rarely feel the need to retreat more
>> than 2-3 steps if it loses the pressure in the very first instant.
>
> Just interested in clarification, not challenging you!
Hi,
I don't know if this is completely related, but I thought I'd throw in the
input. My mare Tulsa has has always been "pretty good" about crossties, or
at least 98% good. In the remaining 2% of the time, she is awful and has
broken more than one halter. In general she is a very sane horse and is
happy to ignore most comings and goings, but *sometimes* will startle at one
thing or another--usually things lifted up and carried by. (no idea why!)
But anyway, if she startles and hits the crossties it is all over. She
*will* fight and pull until she is free. I'm very lucky that she's not been
seriously hurt. In case you are wondering I finally decided, that
crosstieing her was just not worth the risk so I stopped doing it. She's
pretty good about ground tieing now (everyone is terribly impressed)
Anyway, (I'm getting to the point now!) what I've noticed is now if she
startles she takes a step or two back and then says oh OK never mind. She
never hits the crossties, so it's all over in a matter of seconds with no
fighting. So, it doesn't seem the broom or the shavings bag or whatever the
spooky thing is the problem she actually handles that pretty well. However,
that feeling of being trapped is a killer and she'll fight till she is free
even if she hurts herself in the process.
FWIW,
Sharon
&Tulsa
Blackstone, MA USA
From: John Crago
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 07:44:35 PST
Subject: Re: sudden changes
To: Yvonne Lehey
Cc: Greg Lehey
Hi guys,
Have answered Greg's post via the list.
On Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:04:05 +1030 Yvonne Lehey wrote:
> We actually have a double stable with attached yards, surrounded by
> horizontal metal rails. I only think this might be too small to try
> your method. And, Carmina tends to stand there, tied, forever, nice and
> relaxed, and then, suddenly and without any apparent reason, starts
> her pulling back. We might get grey hair waiting for her to explode
> just when we want her to!
As long as this yard is a few horselengths across it should be fine.
Run the rope round something/anything and attempt to pull her nose right up
so that it is contacting the rail.
If she handles that OK after a few minutes start some 'tantrum-invoking'
activity. i.e. Jerk the rope, make sudden movements, put a plastic bag on
the end of a carrot stick, etc. You'll usually find something that causes
the horse to hit the 'eject button' after a little experimentation.
CAUTION: This must not develop into a 'torture' session. At no time when I'm
doing this do I ever induce sweating or other obvious signs of stress.
Usually once the horse realises that it can always easily retreat each time
the 'monster' appears (takes 3-10 times in my experience) they usually begin
to take a bit of interest in the proceedings.
> Yes, that's why we just have her feet trimmed at the moment withoug
> shoing her. I did not want to go on her back again, and Greg is not
> ready to do so either. He might be a bit heavy for her, too, she is
> such a dolly - her feet should fit in a teacup.
> Would LOVE to have horses without having to shoe them. How did you do
> this? Please tell me all about it. Each time we tried to ride our
> horses without shoes, the horn went down very quickly.
Out here we just 'do it'. No big deal. The horse that is shod is the
exception. Horses generally get far too much 'molly-coddling' by
recreational owners. When the horn wears down the frog toughens up the
bottom of the foot hardens quickly and they have never gone lame at my
place.
> In Germany (where we lived before) there has been a big tendency over the
> last 10 years or so to barefoot riding. I have followed some of it in a
> friend's place where a "hoof carer" looked after the horses, and I got the
> impression that the transition period was extremely painful for the horses,
> and there was a lot of daily work involved: you had to walk every horse
> over gravel or macadam at least once a day for half an hour, then create a
> gravel track in the paddock, then do the feet every few days etc. etc.
> Sounded quite labour-intensive and expensive to me, and I got the
> impression that, despite all this, most of the horses were lame most of the
> time....
With the greatest respect to the Germans it sounds like a load of 'rubbish'
to me, unless they've managed to breed a whole race of genetically inferior
horses!! If I related this to my mates and the oldtimers over at the
Berridale Pub (my local 'watering hole') they'd laugh their insides
out!<VBG>
> When I just asked Greg the inncoent question where Snowy River country
> is (thought about inviting you to come along and have a look at
> Carmina), he immediately started to recite Banjo Patterson. Like his
> dad, whenever you encourage him the slightest little bit, they go
> through all of the bloody poem of the Man from Snowy River... Mind, it
> is a very nice one.
Yvonne, I'm sitting here in the S-E corner of the state of New South Wales,
Canberra (our national Capital) is approx 100 kms to the North, I'm about to
go and have breakfast (including a Californian grapefruit would you
believe!) and then go round up my horses.
Don't worry about your lack of geographical knowlege of the World. Most
Americans I've met have an appalling lack of knowlege of general world
geography. I'm totally convinced they are taught in school that the world
begins and ends at the boundaries of the "Sea to shining sea"!! (to quote
one of my favourite American poems/songs <g>).
Kind regards to you both,
John Crago
From: wildhorseranch (Howard T. Smith) at Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:12:10 EST
To: Horseman@orednet.org
Subject: Perceiving Sudden Changes
Dear John, Greg, and others,
It seems to me that one of the basic assumptions of all NH & GH
methods is that, BEFORE you proceed to do something to or with the
horse, that you LOOK AT and PERCEIVE the state of the horse at
that moment, and that you let that state influence your attitude.
Perhaps it would be effective to "have absolute faith in oneself,"
to "have an unshakeable mental image of the final satisfactory
outcome" of a training session, and to "firmly believe that you
can easily achieve this."
However, since no horse is completely predictable, wouldn't it
be better and safer, BEFORE you are absolutely convinced that
you are going to achieve something with the horse, that you FIRST
LOOK AT and PERCEIVE the state of the horse?
THEN, you can decide to start. And, THEN, you look again to see
what is happening with the horse (and with oneself), and THEN you
continue to stay in perceptual contact with the horse (and oneself).
Good tennis players keep their eye on the ball, so do good (baseball)
batters; good horse trainers stay in contact with the momentary state
of the horse, as any greenhorn knows.
If absolute confidence PRECEDES contact with the horse, it is not
experiential confidence but mental arrogance. If fear of the horse
PRECEDES contact with the horse, it is not fear of the horse but fear
of something else that is then displaced on the horse.
It seems to me that every momentarily confident or momentarily fearful
horse trainer should allow the momentary state of the horse to influence
him or her, indeed, must do so to learn the most from the horse and to
be most effective with the horse.
Pretending to be confident--thinking it will be accurately perceived by
the horse and believing that a training session will be more effective--
is simply not necessary. If a person has to learn to be more humble or
more confident with his or her horse, he or she can and should also
LEARN to be more humble or more confident. It as an essential element
in the establishment and further development of the horse-person
relationship that the person as well as the horse should learn. In other
words, part of
horse training is "people-training," as PP said.
Trying to manipulate a horse (or oneself) by pretending to be what one is
not, is less good and ultimately less effective with horses than learning
about oneself while learning about one's horse, as any greenhorn knows.
Best wishes,
Howard
Greenhorns Howard & Henrietta
and mustang Pardner
Aubrey, TX
WildHorseRanch@juno.com
From: "Amie Slate"
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:22:30 -0800
To: Horseman@orednet.org
Subject: Re: reinforcement, abuse, respect, aggression and authority
It's fascinating how so many of our threads are coming together in these
recent posts! At least they are for me. The posts concerning the definition
and proper use of reinforcement, abuse, respect, aggression and authority.
Even the book I'm reading is fitting in beautifully. It's called Parent
Effectiveness Training and it turns out to be applicable to most life
situations including horse training. One of the things I've really enjoyed
reading about is how we are stuck in the abuse of power to resolve conflicts.
The only time this cannot happen is when both parties have equal power. But
in most situations where there is a difference in power levels, it is common
for that power to be used to force a solution onto the less powerful party.
It seems pretty clear that people have at least a psychological edge over
horses and often a physical one as well.
An alternative is offered which is based on the concept that conflict can be
resolved when the needs of all participants are considered. This I connect
with Howard's post about taking the time to perceive the current state of the
horse. We also want to encourage the horse to do the same with us, no? This
line of thinking has led me to a delightful thought: that (given a chance)
the horse actually enjoys participating with us in training as long as their
needs are not overruled. That is, instead of thinking that the horse is only
motivated by rewards or absence of pressure/punishment, they actually are
motivated by real satisfaction with mutual co-operation. Or another way of
saying it is they don't have to be coerced into working with us on our goals,
they enjoy it (given the chance).
I guess I don't feel I'm entirely capturing this thought with these words.
Hopefully, some of you are able to catch it anyway.
If this is true then the core of working with our horses is: Making it clear
to them what it is we are asking for; Listening to their response;
Acknowledging their issues with it; Being willing to modify what we are
asking so that it acceptable to them; Acknowledging their participation.
No wonder this can be so much fun - for both parties!
Amie
From: Feleca Wade
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:30:32 -0600
To: Horseman@orednet.org
Subject: Re: Perceiving Sudden Changes
Hi Howard and all,
I can't speak for John but for me what you mentioned below comes
without hardly knowing it has happened. I worked as a trail barn
manager for 4 years, I think John does this now. I worked with a large
number of horses each year, I always start by looking at the horse. I
sometimes didn't start working with the horse for a few days. It
depended on the horse. But what you are talking about really in time
will become second nature.
> It seems to me that one of the basic assumptions of all NH & GH
> methods is that, BEFORE you proceed to do something to or with the
> horse, that you LOOK AT and PERCEIVE the state of the horse at
> that moment, and that you let that state influence your attitude.
> Perhaps it would be effective to "have absolute faith in oneself,"
> to "have an unshakeable mental image of the final satisfactory
> outcome" of a training session, and to "firmly believe that you
> can easily achieve this."
Having faith in yourself can make all the difference in the interaction with
the horse. If you are notabsoluting sure you can achieve a certain goal you
just might not get there. By having confidence
and a mental image of what you want to do, you will have a structured idea of
how you want to
reach the goal.
> However, since no horse is completely predictable, wouldn't it
> be better and safer, BEFORE you are absolutely convinced that
> you are going to achieve something with the horse, that you FIRST
> LOOK AT and PERCEIVE the state of the horse?
>
> THEN, you can decide to start. And, THEN, you look again to see
> what is happening with the horse (and with oneself), and THEN you
> continue to stay in perceptual contact with the horse (and oneself).
> Good tennis players keep their eye on the ball, so do good (baseball)
> batters; good horse trainers stay in contact with the momentary state
> of the horse, as any greenhorn knows.
I think John left out these details because he does them without thinking.
Just because you are sure you can achieve a goal doesn't mean you won't
adjust to the horse. I know that when I get a new horse in that I am going to
make it into a great trail horse that is safe for beginners that doesn't mean
that I use one way to achieve that goal. I may use a variety of ways and take
different amounts of time, but I always get that great trail horse in the
end. Confidence doesn't mean you use just one way or that youignore the
horse's state of mind, confidence just means that you are sure of your
abilities.
> Pretending to be confident--thinking it will be accurately perceived by
> the horse and believing that a training session will be more effective--
> is simply not necessary. If a person has to learn to be more humble or
> more confident with his or her horse, he or she can and should also
> LEARN to be more humble or more confident. It as an essential element
> in the establishment and further development of the horse-person
> relationship that the person as well as the horse should learn. In other
> words, part of
> horse training is "people-training," as PP said.
>
> Trying to manipulate a horse (or oneself) by pretending to be what one is
> not, is less good and ultimately less effective with horses than learning
> about oneself while learning about one's horse, as any greenhorn knows.
I know people can pretend to be better then they are, but you have to
have faith. You get confidence by doing well. Even if inexperienced
you need to be confident that you can learn or you won't. I think our
horses will show us our limits. No one person is all knowing when it
comes to horses, or really much else, but you have to believe in
yourself and what you do know if you are going to get anywhere If you
try to train a horse with the thought that maybe you can do it, maybe
you will or maybe you won't If you try to train your horse with the
idea that you are able to do it you will. Howard I think you would
believe in this confidence, you are trying to train a wild horse. I
support what you are doing but if you don't believe in your own
confidence to do so I have little doubt that you will fail.
Stephanie
